[Linrad] Re: Linrad MAP65 Communication II

[ix.netcom.com; rein0zn@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Hi Leif,

Thanks much for your comments and detailed answers,
Will answer next week. Have a good weekend


73 Rein W6SZ



-----Original Message-----
>From: Leif Asbrink <leif@xxxxxxxxxx>
>Sent: Jul 24, 2009 6:48 PM
>To: linrad@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: [Linrad] Re: Linrad MAP65 Communication II
>
>
>Hi Rein,
>
>> >> I started this with the intention to use 2 computers and drifted
>> >> eventually towards this solution with one computer..
>> >OK. But two computers should actually be easier since there 
>> >would not be any timing issues.
>> 
>> I have yet to have 2 computers to communicate.
>No. The computers will not communicate. (bi-directional)
>One computer sends UDP packets to an IP address that you have
>to specify.
>
>> The IP adress of the MAP65 laptop is obtained with the DOS
>> Ipconfig/all and I can ping the addresses from the other computers.
>Good. Together with what base port MAP65 is using that is all you 
>need to know for Linrad.
>
>> Also they work in the microsoft sense of the word, as a so called
>> home network.
>That is fine but not needed. If you can ping the addres that is
>specified in Linrad, everything is fine. Then MAP65 can use
>loopback at 127.0.0.1 I think.
>
>> >> Could not get the 2 computers to work together even after the
>> >> introduction of the par_netsend_ip parameter.
>> >Did you really write the address of the computer inside which 
>> >you run MAP65 into the file?
>> Absolutely and the correct IP address shows up in the networking
>> setup menu ( ist or second line )
>OK. Then the problem is in the network. Unfortunately I know nothing
>at all about networking. I always disable all firewalls and other
>difficult to manage safety features.
>
>I hope someone else can help. I am sorry, but I just do not know.
>
>> >Start at SM5BSZ Home Page:
>> >http://www.sm5bsz.com/index.htm
>> >http://nitehawk.com/sm5bsz/index.htm
>> >http://g7rau.demon.co.uk/sm5bsz/index.htm
>> 
>> Agreed and I had and have seen that, It's one of those things
>> we talked about, I came from MAP65 and was expecting to see 
>> something like use "unicast for ( 1 or 2 computers ) " You see
>> I still do not get it!
>I do not understand why you expect to see "unicast for ( 1 or 2 
>computers )." 
>
>I do not know much about networking. The code in Linrad is built
>on prototype code that Roger, W3SZ supplied long ago. I built
>on it by use of trial and error. The Linrad network is never
>unicast however if I choose to believe what Wikipedia writes:
>"Unicast messaging is used for all network processes where a 
>private or unique resource is requested making most networking 
>traffic Unicast in form. Unicast is used where two way connections 
>are needed to complete the network transaction."
>
>The Linrad -> MAP65 data stream is not a two way communication.
> 
>> You did not define what you understand uni ( one to one = 2 )
>> or one to more than 2 ( multi ) 
>No. I never used the word uni. As seen from within Linrad the
>transmission of data is multicasting. Linrad does not know
>whether there is anyone listening at all or whether many
>computers are receiving the data. 
>
>
>> Believe me Leif, I have been told by others that I have been e-mailing with,
>> both settings to use. For the same situation.
>Now you refer to settings in MAP65 and I do not have any
>idea in what way they differ. I hope Joe is reading this and
>can explain to us:-)
>
>> There is confusion about this. It is not just me. I am trying to eliminate
>> this, and get to instructions that gets one results right away,
>Dear Rein, I have no idea what the problem might be. Maybe Joe
>has coded MAP65 to listen to 127.0.0.1 if unicast is specified and to
>192.0.0.2 or something else when multicast is specified.
>
>The network in Linrad is uncomplicated. Typically one would select
>a totally free IP address in an addres range that is not transmitted
>to the outside world through the router connecting to the Internet.
>There is a standard for that and that standard is adopted in Linrad.
>
>Joe wanted something different to minimize the load on his network.
>Linrad allows free experimentation - but I do not have the knowledge
>about networking to give any advice. I am sorry for that.
>
> 
>> You will say almost I am not going to do this because I like to see how
>> people make out and I learn from it.
>??????????
>I have tried to the best of my knowledge to tell you everything that
>I know - and that is not much.
>
>I do know however that as seen from Linrad networking is extremely simple.
>Specify an IP address and a base port and Linrad will send data there
>as specified in the network setup.
>
>> I really am not out to make trouble. I hurts your cause! Isn't satisfying
>> if people can download your work that you have put so many efforts towards,
>> just out of the box? 
>> 
>> Leif, I really want to be positive and creative here. Really.
>I appreciate that - but I can not explain why Joe adopted the terminology
>of uni- and multi-casting.
>
>
>> >On this page there are two links
>> >Linrad <http://www.sm5bsz.com/linuxdsp/linrad.htm>
>> >Linrad for newcomers <http://www.sm5bsz.com/linuxdsp/usage/newco/newcomer.htm>
>> >
>> >The newcomer page has a link to <http://www.sm5bsz.com/linuxdsp/linrad.htm>
>> >the same as the first link on the SM5BSZ Home Page.
>> >The Linrad link goes to "Linrad Home Page" and here you should
>> >search for network. The word network occurs two times on the page and
>> >the second occurance is this:
>> >LINRAD NETWORK <http://www.sm5bsz.com/linuxdsp/run/network.htm> 
>> >
>> >That page starts like this:
>> >General
>> >
>> >Linrad uses the network to make raw or processed data available 
>> >to other programs that may run on the same computer or on any 
>> >other computer in a local network.
>> >
>> >Linrad can multicast on IP addresses (groups) 239.255.0.0 to 
>> >239.255.0.15 This means that several computers can multicast 
>> >their data to the network simultaneously in different groups.
>> >
>> >The Linrad base port has to be set between 50000 and 65000 
>> >in steps of 10 and Linrad will send data to a port with an 
>> >offset with respect to the base port that depends on the 
>> >data format. 
>> > 
>> >> The only place I saw the " _cast" parameter selectable is in MAP65.
>> >Yes. The Linrad network was not intended for MAP65 originally 
>> >but for use in a multioperator contest station. I got 
>> >enquieries about the use of two computers on the same antenna. 
>> >Would it be possible to connect Delta44 cards in parallel or 
>> >would one need two RX2500 units. (The answer is perhaps. 
>> >There could be a significant increase in the noise floor but 
>> >a really thick and short wire between the two Delta44 might 
>> >help.) The network was originally implemented as a solution
>> >to this problem.
>> 
>> OK Leif I get this and I fully understand that you would keep 
>> the Linrad as flexible and adaptable to all possible applcations
>> present and future. On the other hand one approach does not exclude
>> the others.
>> 
>> You just introduced the beginners version.
>> Great step forward.
>>  
>> May I say imagine if you had introduced this 5 or 
>> perhaps even 10 years ago. Getting old, can't quite 
>> remember if it is has been 10 years or more. The introduction of
>> the windows version, has without a doubt, made it easier to do this.
>> But I believe you could have done this mush earlier even in Linux.
>It is not so easy. I did not have the knowledge to do it earlier.
>I find it extremely difficult to follow the way others think.
>It is very hard to know what to write in order to meet unspoken
>assumptions that occur in the amateur community. The current
>example with uni/multi is typical. I did not have the slightest
>idea that a problem was hidden here before you brought it up.
>Now I know it will be a good idea to write some more about
>what Linrad is doing. Maybe I should just remove all occurances
>of the word cast. Linrad sends UDP... 
>
>> Let me suggest not to use "N" for this, as "N" is used for network setup
>> already any other not used letter would be fine I think 
>There are no not used letters. Many letters occur many times 
>and each time the user is presented with a choice it is necessary
>to read the text and take the decision based on what it says.
>
>> I was using ver 3.06 hat has the "N" option and I for get how I got
>> to the Network setup but i did. 
>If you are a newcomer there is no network. Not many other things
>either, just a basic receiver.
>
>> With a selection as the "N"ewcomer you can of course go to another
>> version of the existing program.
>???????????
>I do not understand what you mean here.
> 
>> Linux is out of the box these days as long as one stays away from sound
>> cards andthe like and want to do programming plus a few other things I
>> guess.  
>The most popular distro seems to be Ubuntu. I personally find that
>one rather difficult because of all its safety features. I find Debian
>easier.
>
>> The use of Linrad with MAP65 is at this point a much more important 
>> application in amateur cicles I think. There is ton of amateurs on
>> 2 M EME with JT65 these days, virtually around the clock 7 * 24 * 30/(31)
>> They all could use Linrad/MAP and the way people spend effort
>> ( and money ) these days many try to obtain the very best within there means.
>> The nature of EME in a 100 Khz wide band makes finding each other 
>> a difficult problem and time consuming problem , it ties in with the 
>> hated use of the EME loggers etc etc.
>> MAP65 allows to operate without help from loggers, sked lists, the phone.
>> you name it.
>Yes. I have no idea why there is a problem in the first place. I find
>it hard to believe it is within Linrad or its setup procedures.
>
>It could be the operating system: Visual effects, firewalls, other
>softwares that destroy the latency, whatever. 
>
>It could be the network itself. Routers, switches, whatever.
>
>It could also be MAP65. 
>
>> My  latest results are now as follows. 
>> 
>> All machines XP
>> 
>> Having a laptop      P4 1.7 GHz 512 MB 
>>        2 benchtops   P4 1.7 or 1.9 Ghz 512 NB and the 2d 1024 MB memory
>> 
>> Loaded this morning fresh MAP65 I-Q linrad,2.35  is included in the MMAP65
>> package,available from K1JT's web pages ( google MAP65 Linrad will gets one there )
>OK.
>
>> Installing this has become second nature here and it really is out of the box.
>> It needs of course a RF SPACE SDR NN and USB port(s) on the computer to be
>> used.
>> 
>> The 512 MB machine runs fine with MAp65, there  are no interruptions of the MAP65
>> data stream reception when the WSJT65B send cycle starts. Linrad keeps on sending
>> data it seems and as said it is working. Except for a minor point.
>> It I open a pull down menu in MAP65 the data steam reception of MAP65 stops
>> as in the previous laptop version when MAP goes in "send"
>Visual Effects may cause such problems.
>
>> So the pulling down of the a menu causes an event that prevents linrad
>> sending out data, I think that is really what is happening.
>> similar as with the laptop. I can live with that I think
>I have a laptop with XP and a 2.8 GHz Pentium 4. The system monitor
>shows 100% CPU load for about 5 seconds just before transmit
>starts, but that has no adverse effects at all. Linrad and MAP65
>are excactly as they come with Joes package except for the change
>needed to use SDR-14 instead of SDR-IQ.
>
>If I move a window while the CPU load is 100% the 100% load lasts 
>for 10 seconds but that does not affect the processing at all. 
>That is with all visual effects enabled. When I disable visual
>effects I see no increase in CPU load while moving windows around.
>
>> The 2d benchtop is just working! During send Linrad keeps working and 
>> sending audio to the sound card. it keeps doing this even when MAP65
>> goes into send. WSJT tones and receiver audio are both present.
>> Sound card gets obvious signal from 2 sources. Ansd it is not causing
>> any problems.
>OK. I do not know much about all the softwares that typically
>run in the background under XP. Having both Linrad and MAP65 on
>a single computer is time critical and unforgiving because of
>the way USB behaves. The problem does not exist under Linux....
>
>> Out of perhaps as many as 15 loadings with the laptop I had that happen
>> once! This indicates that there is something time critical on the edge.
>> 
>> It is by no means clear to me what interaction there is between
>> Linrad and MAP65 except that they both use the same CPU and of course
>> any high load of the CPU could cause trouble.
>The problem is the drive routine for the USB. The fact that it crashes
>rather than looses some data (with an appropriate error code) when
>it is not serviced in time. Linrad itself is not sensitive to
>high CPU load and there is no interaction between Linrad and MAP65
>except for Linrad sending (blindly) UDP packages while MAP65
>looks for them.
>
>> MAP65 does not seem to care whether the incoming data stream stops as
>> in the Linrad "P" key stroke . as soon the data steam resumes ( 'B")
>> it accepts the data
>> 
>> Linrad on the other hand seem to show sensitivity to "events" and
>> it does not recover though it keeps running in some fashion.
>Yes. As I repeatedly tell you: I do not know how to handle a crashed
>device driver under Windows so Linrad can not do anything. I am not 
>sure it can be done at all. The thread is hanging on a blocking
>read and I have no idea what to do to force a return.
>
>> Certainly if the the CPU gets to busy trouble start. 
>Not really. With other hardware as well as under Linux CPU
>overload does not cause crashes, only loss of data which
>is not a big problem. If the output stutters a little
>while one resizes a window or opens another program is
>no problem. Not even if one wants to hear what is being received
>while it happens. Usually the only consequence would be a
>couple of missed screen updates.
>
>> However, I have a 15 MB powerpoint picture fileel of my beloved
>> harbor of Rotterdam and I can kick this file from one computer
>> to the other on this very network we are taking about, via  the
>> 2 network cards in these 2 computer faster than I can see it happen. 
>> Msecs probably. Have this had working here since I started this 10
>> days ago.
>OK. The hardware is fine. 
>
>
>> >> It is hard for me to imagine that he is able and to get away with
>> >> this in a corporate environment with out REALLY understanding
>> >> networking. Or, more likely that he is the corporate top IT person
>> >> himself!
>> >It is not complicated at all. I think you have been confused
>> >by far too much information....
>> 
>> I thought at that point that corprate IT management do not want computer
>> users to do this stuff, and it is unlikely in my experience, that users
>> in the corporation have root privileges. I am not sure what it takes
>> to work with IP addresses in XP or Vista.
>I think this sentence contains the root of the problem.
>
>It takes nothing to work with IP addresses in XP or Linux and I do
>not think Vista or Windows 7 would be different.
>
>A program running inside a computer can send UDP packages to any
>IP address. No privileges needed and it does not matter what IP
>address the computer has. The corprate IT management assigns an
>IP address to your computer but that is no limitation to where
>you can send UDP packages. The corprate IT management will however
>not allow arbitrary IP addresses through the routers. What Mart
>did was to send UDP to an IP address that is legal and will be
>routed to him. Any other computer that is along the path 
>can also pick up the data as far as I understand. The IP address
>does not have to be the address of the computer itself. Any
>computer can receive all the data that is seen at the input
>of the network interface.
>
>> >> Next question
>> >> 
>> >> Once MAP65 goes into transmit ( generating
>> >> tones via the sound card ( selected in MAP65 )
>> >> and also selected earlier for Linrad ( by Joe's
>> >> parameter file set.)
>> >> 
>> >> Should at that point the USB data stream form the
>> >> SDR I-Q box into linrad stop or not?
>> >The USB data stream should not stop. Linrad does not
>> >know that MAP65 is listening. 
>> 
>> Very true, I see that now on the 2 working machines.
>> >
>> >> The incoming data are useless at that point anyway.
>> >Hmmm, you can use it to see if you are transmitting
>> >at the desired frequency and you can use Linrad to monitor
>> >your frequency drift. You could also connect your receiver
>> >to a directional coupler during transmit and use the
>> >Linrad S-meter to check your WSVR. 
>> 
>>   I would think in the sense that it would take a lot of 
>>   T/R swiching, attenuation to make it useful. If implement
>>   yes, linrad is a selective voltmeter, power meter or
>>   spectrum analyzer in the end. 
>It is actually quite easy. Standard is to switch the preamp to 
>a dummy load during transmit. You might switch it to a 60 dB 
>attenuator instead. On the other side of the attenuator a single 
>relay can switch between forward or reverse on a 30 dB directional 
>coupler. Safe and sound:-)
>
>> >> Should at the end of the send period in MAP65 the
>> >> USB data stream resume?
>> >NO. USB should run all the time.
>> 
>>    It does on the working machines. Is MAP65 collecting
>>    streaned data a this point? 
>I have no idea. 
>
>> >> Suppose I did away with the USB SDR I-Q all togheter,
>> >> 
>> >> And change back to the delta44 what should happen
>> >> then in this respect ( linrad keeps working during the
>> >> send period? I have removed the USB factor now?
>> >That should solve the problem. You could also connect
>> >a second computer for MAP65.
>> 
>>    Here is the network problem again popping up.
>>    Linrad is streaming data on the network card
>>    with the right IP ( prove of this is that I can
>>    transfer files form the linrad "shared" documents 
>>    directory ( windows security stuff ) to the
>>    "shared" documents directory on the MAP65 computer.
>I have no idea whether Windows security stuff will allow the
>ports used by Linrad. I also do not know if UDP is handled
>differently from other protocols.
>
>>    Windows lets one set up a shared directory for John 
>>    at Larse's computer as well as a shared directory
>>    for Bjorn at Larse's computer, John can not send
>>    data to Larse's computer except to his dedicated
>>    shared directory and so on.
>> 
>>    That's why I keep on asking about Shared
>Well, I have no knowledge at all about these things. I do not think
>it is related to the Linrad -> MAP65 problem. I do not think
>the protection of disk access from different users is related in
>any way to how a firewall blocks data.
>
>>   I do not understand why I can't get with the data stream clearly 
>>   present, into MAP65. It HAS to be a network problem or setting. 
>>   The one computer system is working, the only difference is 
>>   127.0.0.1 vs 169.254.196.84 on another ( protected ? )
>>   computer.
>> 
>>    While writing this I realize all of the sudden that the laptop
>>    has a firewall! ( new in XP I think vis XP updates ) 
>> 
>>   On the other hand if this is the reason I would have expected 
>>   plenty of questions by other windows users here on the
>>   reflector "Do have a fire wall on the laptop " 
>>   Just think here on paper.
>> 
>>   Will check this later, just one click to turn that off.
>I suggest you turn it off at both ends for a test.
>This was written by HB9DRI on the list 08/08/17:
>
>Subject: Linrad + MAP65 "How to ...Guide"
>STEP 1) Connect your computers into your network and check communication in
>both directions, disable windows firewall or create and exception rule into
>the firewall, because my network is behind a Firewall I disable the windows
>firewall to avoid problems. The MAP65 need to have a static IP address
>otherwise you will need to change in the setup of Linrad when the IP address
>of the MAP65 host change, prefer use static IP's for both computers.
>
>>   I have genuine XP stuff here on these machines and MS will check
>>   it all the time. With the drive to fight cyberwars etc, they make a
>>   big efforts to update the OS with security fixes ( almost daily
>>   via internet updating ) One of these updates is the firewall thing
>>   some time ago. I know the laptop has it. 
>There should be plenty of people who know these things.....
>
>> >> Going to put MAP65 I/Q on 3 other XP bench tops
>> >> and see what happens in transmit.
>> >You mean Linrad + MAP65-IQ ?
>> 
>>   Yes in a way, Joe has made Linrad3.05 part of the 
>>   MAP65 I-Q installation.
>> 
>>   If one installs MAP65 I-Q linrad is also installed both
>>   with short cuts.
>> 
>>   Ready to go, as on my 2d and 3d computer.,
>Yes. I just tested it on the 2.8 GHz P4:-)
>
>> >> In conlusion, I get the impression of being an idiot having
>> >> to ask all these questions in the presence of 150 other
>> >> users!
>> >It does help:-)
>> >Your questions have lead to one improvement in the Linrad setup
>> >dialogue already. Hopefully there will be someone who will 
>> >help by writing a suitable introduction to networking for
>> >Linrad users to be placed on the Linrad network page....
>> 
>> 
>> Leif, I have a paper here from an user that should fit as a link on
>> your web page. I have suggested him to contact you. I think every- 
>> thing is in the paper and there would be no need for me to do it.
>> Although I am still willing to do it.
>> 
>> The point is also that I did not learn anything new from his text, had
>> done every thing right from the beginning. He has a way of creating
>> the par_netsend_ip file by starting from a copy of one of the other
>> parameter files and than modifying it. I have the strong impression
>> from my doings here that that is not needed, do not know really.
>This particular trick could be a workaround for the standard settings
>of too complicated editors that are difficult to force to produce plain
>ascii text files. By loading a plain text file you tell your editor
>what type of format (no format at all) to save.
>
>> Also next week I will try to clean up the 25 or so files we generated and
>> edit it to a Q&A format. This  should make the reading easier.
>> 
>> Next week I will also comment on all your other comments in this message.
>> I am running out of time here.
>> As nobody else seem to have the problems I have here I would love to give
>> you a hand with a possible solution.
>I suspect others have had the problem silently. No way of knowing really....
>
>> What keeps me from doing this is really to get a "development" or just
>> "test", if you like,  machine together. A few years ago I compiled linux
>> versions of Linrad, but found it difficult to get everythig linux
>> installed so that I could compile and go through the process without
>> generating pages with error messages due to missing stuff in the Linux 
>> installation on the drive. 
>> 
>> I imagine that working in Windows is even more trouble as Bill wants
>> me to buy the, the MS development software.
>Linrad is old-fashioned. You can develop code under Windows as easy as
>under Linux. It is actually more difficult to install Windows than to
>install Linux on unknown computers that one can recover these days.
>A Pentium 3 is fast enough but hard to get running under Windows.
>Under Linux the installation of all the drive routines is automatic
>nowadays:-)
>
>> Perhaps you can make me suggestions what to do for this if anythisng
>To do for what? Presumably you will find that the two computer
>solution works perfectly when needless protection is turned off.
>(Or configured properly.)
>
>> The SDR hardware is not mine and it would be too much problems to send
>> it over anyway, I am aftraid.
>It would be pointless. Nothing that you ask about is related to
>the SDR hardware. It is a pity that there is no searchable data base 
>for old mails on this list. Alex wrote exactly what you want to know
>one year ago only. The only way to find it (that I know of) is to
>list the topics and look for what seems to be relevant.
>
>
>  73
>
>  Leif / SM5BSZ
>
>>


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